Curse

ValaOfTheFens · Jun 15, 2007, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lumenil

Ok, maybe it's possible. Did Anet warrant you that you will be always able to spam forever anything you want and never run out of energy? Why dont you consider taking an e-management skill, just like any other classes do? Never heard of Signet of Loust Souls, or Glyph of Lesser Energy? Do you realize that monk, mesmers, eles, paragons, sins, rangers are always running out of energy if they spam skills too much? Why do you think you are exempt from that?

Ummmwhy does everyone mention SoLS? Not everyone has Nightfall and anyway its all the way towards the end of the game. SR has been ignored skill-wise since GW began and with these nerfs Necromancers are having to pay the price for ANets error.

I'm going to be experimenting with a number of builds in both PvE and PvP for the next week and see what this new solution is all about. It seems really bad for PvE but might be alright for PvP.

WildmouseX · Jun 15, 2007, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lumenil

Are you forgetting Leadership, Mysticism and Critical Attacks? They too are energy management primary attributes. Are they giving back infinite energy? can those characters spam their skills endlessly?

critical strikes - The chance for critical hits increases 1% for each attribute point spent in Critical Strikes. For each critical hit, the Assassin receives 1 energy at rank 3 and above, 2 energy at rank 8 and above, and 3 energy at rank 13 and above." - 17 skills

-- the primary function of this attribute is increaseing critical attacks, not energy management... considering the max crit hit % from this attribute is 17, and the max energy gain is only 3 for each one of those - it is clearly not an effective E-management source.. out of 100 attacks you get 17 crits and only 51 energy total from them.

mysticism -"Whenever an Enchantment ends, you gain 1 Health for each rank of Mysticism and 1 Energy for every 3 ranks of Mysticism." - 21 skills

- again the primary function of this attribute is actually the health restore, energy management is a secondary function.

leadership - "You gain 1 Energy for each ally affected by one of your Shouts or Chants (maximum 1 Energy for every 2 ranks)." - 20 skills

- out of the primary attributes you accuse me of ignoreing, only 1 of them has energy management as it's primary function... so it's actually comparible

first condition on leadership is that you get energy for every teammate affected by your shouts. that is a condition that you have total control of.. SR's condition is that things have to die, which isn't as frequent as all you people who like to accuse us of haveing endless energy like to make it seem. - what's that our energy isn't never ending? that's right, unless there is a non-stop parade of things dyeing, our energy isn't endless. -- with the ability to move to maximise your e-return, and the control to choose when to use the shout to get your energy, compared to the dependence of your team scoreing a kill - leadership wins out here.

the second condition on leadership is a cap - and not just a cap, but a cap that is stable, and returns energy everytime it's supose too - just not as much.

if they were implimenting a "1 energy for every 2 points in soul reaping" there wouldn't be an argument here, because we would have a steady, relighible source of energy return - instead they impliment timers, that can be triggered in patterns where not only do you not get a huge chunk of energy, you don't get any at all....

paragons would be screaming up a storm too if they were allowed 1 energy for each rank, but only got it once every 5 seconds, or even 3 times in 15 seconds - because the energy management that they depend on would be as sparactic as ours currently is, and as it will still be after the new change. -- there you go developers - you want to see how you broke the necro, give the paragon 1 energy for each rank, but only 3 times in 15 seconds and see how well that class plays after.

-- and yes i know that they claim they have been testing, but as long as the posibility exsists that the group can drop three monsters, then whipe out the rest of the mob with AoE in less then 15 seconds (which isn't unheard of), leaveing a MM surounded by bodies and no energy to raise minnions - the class is broken.

why is that because we are complaining that they made our energy return too sparatic are you people assumeing that we're complaining about not being able to spam? you know what happens when you assume? you make an Ass out of yourself.

- the necro fills 3 rols.

* the first being MM - mm spells are energy heavey, up untill recently they were 20-25e (feinds is still 25 e and compleately unuseible right now). the MM needs energy in the middle and end of the battle to raise minnions - the only skill he spams is Blood of the Master, which due to it's health sacrifice has a built in cap and reason not to spam it willy nilly..... when timers are triggered so that the necro doesn't have energy at the end of the fight, he is crippled and can't preform his role.

* the second being hexing, hex's do damage slowly over long peroids of time, and many classes have skills to stop that damage from happening.furthermore many hex's don't do damage directly, requireing instead for your target to be attacking, throwing spells, or something else - meaning your target can avoid takeing damage by not doing what the hex needs them to do......hex's that do the most damage take a long time to recharge, those that are quick and even remotely spamible are, as above, not direct damage skills. --- because people like to remove the hex's the necro places, he has to stack 2-3 weeker hex's ontop of his main damage dealer. stacking is not spaming, and it's the same with a hex mesmer - a hex necro needs energy early in a fight, when everyone has the most health and are not dyeing. in the middle of the fight, if their energy is not replaced then they can not continue to cast hex's and become crippled after the first volly and can't perform his role. (the 3 in 15 second might actually fix the problem that the dev's created with the 5 second rule here, but untill that update is actually download to us the argument is mute.)

* the last role is a blood spiker - here is the only place you're going to find a necro spamer - except for the fact that energy isn't the limiting attribute in this case, due to the health sacrifices the health bar is the limiting factor. the necro isn't going to be spaming when their on the brink of suicide, reguardless of if they have enough energy to do it or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lumenil

And, speaking of conditional energy managements, ever tryed playing a mesmer? or an assassin? please, whining like that, you are just showing that playing a necro you have developed no gaming skill.

yes i play both classes, and wondering how anyone who knows anything about this games mechanics could posibly have the impression that mesmer energy management is dependent on any conditions. - and again the assassins energy management is a secondary function of their primary attribute, they are not a caster, so they should suck at e-management to begin with.

mesmer - no condition energy renewal
Channeling, Energy Drain, Energy Tap, Ether Signet, Leech Signet -
and these are just the inspiration line

lets look at all of the necromancers e-management skills

well of power - requires dead body (which usually moves you into range of being attacked by mele if you want to be in it)

Reapers mark - requires target to die while this hex is still active

signet of lost souls - requires target to be <50% health

- and that it.

one thing i would also like to point out, all any group worried about e-management has to do, is to bring 1 necro equipted with blood is power and blood ritual (neither of which a necro can use on himself) and everyone in the group truely has ENDLESS energy.

Solar Light · Jun 15, 2007, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Doesnt change the fact that SR is the best emanagement in the game, followed by leadership and mysticsim..

doesnt change the fact that a team of eight necros with JB, Sprits, and minions can have infinete energy, even with the SR changes.

sure, a monks divine favor makes them great healers, but with a all necro group built to have energy, a N/Mo with healers boon and heal other can SPAM it on everyone, or at least it did before the current SR change, perhaps it does now, im a bit out of date there.

point is, SR is still the best energy management in the game, and still broken.

oh, a Heal other/ jameis gaze used with healers boon beats infuse in big healing, without the health loss.

and a necro group bult for near infinete energy can spam that.

Yichi · Jun 15, 2007, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by WildmouseX

yes i play both classes, and wondering how anyone who knows anything about this games mechanics could posibly have the impression that mesmer energy management is dependent on any conditions. - and again the assassins energy management is a secondary function of their primary attribute, they are not a caster, so they should suck at e-management to begin with.

mesmer - no condition energy renewal
Channeling, Energy Drain, Energy Tap, Ether Signet, Leech Signet -
and these are just the inspiration line

lets look at all of the necromancers e-management skills

well of power - requires dead body (which usually moves you into range of being attacked by mele if you want to be in it)

Reapers mark - requires target to die while this hex is still active

signet of lost souls - requires target to be <50% health

- and that it.

one thing i would also like to point out, all any group worried about e-management has to do, is to bring 1 necro equipted with blood is power and blood ritual (neither of which a necro can use on himself) and everyone in the group truely has ENDLESS energy.

Since you know so much abotu game mechanics, should i point out the flaws in your validity of said skills?

Every other form of energy management ( well use the mesmer for instance since u refered to it) is conditional.

Channeling - requires me to be near na enemy or foe for be to see any gain of benefit from it. This is also an enchantment meaning it can be removed. If i am a monk in the backline casting, liek i should be, i gain no benefit from this whatsoever.
Energy Drain and Tap - requires enemy or target foe to have the energy for me to steal it. Many times while playing the old Edrain boon prot you would hit another player who didnt have the appropriate energy for you to be able to fully benefit from this skill.
Ether signet - requires me to be below a certian point in energy. If i am not below that point, this skill does nothing.
Leech Signet - requires enemy or foe to be using a skill or casting a spell for this to be useful, even then if youre off, you wait forever for it to recharge with no benefit from it.

Necromancers have a built in energy management which revolves around things dying, so yes while it has its conditions and limitations, it is far more reachable in PVE than any other form of energy management. A necro can gain energy from an animal, a player, and enemy, a npc, a spirit, a minion... all of which can die and give the necro energy, this is on top of whatever skill they might want to bring as energy management such as sig of lost souls or glyph of lesser.

While one necro can bring things to help regenerate another players energy, they will both run out and both are enchantments meanign that they can be taken off and will ultimately not keep you with endless energy.

try again.

Ritual del Fuego · Jun 15, 2007, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by WildmouseX

mysticism -"Whenever an Enchantment ends, you gain 1 Health for each rank of Mysticism and 1 Energy for every 3 ranks of Mysticism." - 21 skills

- again the primary function of this attribute is actually the health restore, energy management is a secondary function.

I disagree with this. Don't know if you play as a Dervish but when I play my dervish I could care less about the healing part of this attribute. I mean, come on. With level 15 Mysticism you get a 15 point heal? Yippee!!! I mean seriously, one swipe at a mob with a vamp weapon gives me that. The primary function is energy management if you ask me.

Hole Sale Traps · Jun 15, 2007, 11:19 PM // 23:19

I still want the old Per nerf Soul reaping to come back with the needed changes and not the timed energy gain. All in all They Screwed Over SR once again Period

jrk247 · Jun 16, 2007, 03:37 AM // 03:37

I haven't tested out the newest solution to SR yet but before (the first nerf) it wasn't so bad. You just had to play it smart and not endlessly spam skills especially the 15 energy+ ones. You had to take out fiends in your MM build to maintain energy better, and even then you could have them but only summon them during a battle (25 energy is ~half the energy bar for an average necro). It's not as bad as people make it out to be, SR was and still is powerful just with limits. It is one of the best energy managements as long as stuff dies. You guys also have to realise it is a passive attribute, it only kicks in when something by you dies. I haven't seen a problem with SR in PvE. I don't know why we have all these PvEr's whining when I've seen most of the energy problems in PvP not PvE. I guess if you are a MM that endlessly spams minions when they become available you would have problems. Just having Sig of Lost Souls is great for energy return. Blood builds are easy and don't have much energy problems, seeings how with a good blood build you can have Reaper's Mark and SoLS on your bar. Atleast my newest blood build has them. I never run out of energy and at 14 SR I get 5 degen with RM. Only builds that seem to be hard to run would be SS or any other curse build and a MM, but then again if you play it smart it isn't hard to maintain energy.

Tiny Killer · Jun 16, 2007, 05:20 AM // 05:20

Maybe it is because I just do not know how to play a necro, but I have noticed that since the first 'nerf' of SR, I still never ran out of energy. It did not matter if I was blood, death or curses. However, like I said, maybe I just do not know how to play the class.

ArKaiN · Jun 16, 2007, 05:59 AM // 05:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiny Killer

Maybe it is because I just do not know how to play a necro, but I have noticed that since the first 'nerf' of SR, I still never ran out of energy. It did not matter if I was blood, death or curses. However, like I said, maybe I just do not know how to play the class.

No, that was pretty much it. As long as stuff was killable, infinite energy.
Unfortunately it also applied to spirits dying, even ones that die to do stuff (wanderlust, union, etc), so it was infinite energy in PVP too.

Sniper22 · Jun 17, 2007, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lumenil

Ok, maybe it's possible. Did Anet warrant you that you will be always able to spam forever anything you want and never run out of energy? Why dont you consider taking an e-management skill, just like any other classes do? Never heard of Signet of Loust Souls, or Glyph of Lesser Energy? Do you realize that monk, mesmers, eles, paragons, sins, rangers are always running out of energy if they spam skills too much? Why do you think you are exempt from that?

Lol, not saying we should have infinite energy or anything, but some necro builds need it. Lets say you wipe out a group of guys and you only have 35 energy and you are playing a minion master. Cast animate bone fiend and you are down to 11-12 (with energy regen). Then thats enough for a bone horror and you and your group have to move on because they won't wait for your energy to come back.

You play BiP in urgoz. Lets say you have 3 eles, a minion master, 2 monks and rit lord all crying out for energy. You keep giving them energy, but u cant keep giving them the energy they need forever, I mean with this update its a lot easier to do that though.

Seriously, necros in general, really aren't much more powerful even if they had infinite energy. They aren't going to out damage eles, they don't need that much energy to throw a few hexes on some mobs... I mean monks, mesmers, eles, rangers, and all the others would be so much more powerful with infinite energy.

BTW for those who think soul reaping is the best energy management, guess again (ya ok, it could be exploited, but even the necro/hex teams weren't that dominating). Go to a normal pvp game. Lets say you are in random arenas. You can have 13 soul reaping, but it isn't going to help you much. Deaths are so much more rare in pvp especially when there is monks. Necros can hit 0 energy b4 there is a death, there isn't much to help them with energy unless you are going to spend points into some 2ndary attribute, or bring signet of loss souls, which still doesn't help all the time. Eles can manage energy easily with their massive amounts of energy and ele attunments. Rangers have expertise which really reduces the energy for skills. Assassins can easily have a lot of energy, especially with zealous daggers. I never have too much problem on my monk, unless my team is really getting pounded. Necros energy management is conditional on whether people die or not. If people die... its good... If people dont die... then they're screwed.

jrk247 · Jun 17, 2007, 12:43 AM // 00:43

I find it funny that people still think necro's can endlessly spam skills all the time, take a look at the recharge times of the skills before you even think about typing about how they are endlessly spammed. And people also need to realize soul reaping is a passive attribute, yes it's powerful BUT only when stuff dies. It is good at managing energy only when stuff is under 50% health or dying. So please stop whining and saying how necro's are overpowered, unless you have played a necro you have no place to talk. And if you have played a necro you understand that SR is powerful and not powerful at times. I don't know why people think SR is so good and needs to be nerfed at all, it is one of the most conditional primary attributes out there.

Curse You · Jun 17, 2007, 01:02 AM // 01:02

With the new system, if you're at max energy, the counter will not be going. Since the update, I've been at max energy and seen a wall of +13 appear when a bunch of things died.

Frankly, if you're continuously at about 15 energy or lower, you need to rethink your build/play style. Myself, I always try to use the lowest number of spells to kill a target, especially when I'm running my SS build.

cyberjanet · Jun 18, 2007, 01:03 PM // 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by WildmouseX

no other class is REQUIRED to bring along skills to do the function of their primary attribute.

Beautifully said.

TabascoSauce · Jun 18, 2007, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrk247

I don't know why people think SR is so good and needs to be nerfed at all, it is one of the most conditional primary attributes out there.

There are two theories as to how this suddenly got noticed after two years.

1. Hypothetically, there may have been a tournament that ANet had, well lets say big plans to show off to investors, and sadly that tourney was swept by a spirit-powered Necro FotM out of the blue. Evidently that raised some eyebrows and caused the incredibly heavy-handed untested ill-conceived mass nerf to SR, as a kneejerk reaction because of embarrassment.

2. Some slackjawed beancounter (maybe a new hire out for a promotion) in ANet - who has never played a Necro - stumbled on SR and had a math-induced epiphany, roughly stated here as "OMFG NECS CAN GET 863 PIPS OF ENERGY REGEN IF THEY CAN KILL 47.2 MOBS / SEC AT 22 SR"

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Thomas.knbk · Jun 18, 2007, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper22

You could be without energy for 15 secs (if 3 mobs die at once and you gain all energy from it)

You still have 4 pips. This could actually put you on par with other casters for 15 seconds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper22

Still an average of 1 death per 5 secs

That's still an average of 6 pips at the very reasonable spec of 10 soul reaping, or 9,6 pips at 16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper22

No more energy from enemy spirits

I've only seen a necromancer relying on enemy spirits once, and that was in the celestial tournament eF vs. iQ match, where eF guessed correctly iQ was going to play SB/RI and they gave their reaper's mark necro Holy Veil and he used the energy from the spirits to maintain it on everyone. That's one match in the thousands I've seen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buster

Now pvpers are crying about hexes. I mean when is it going to stop ? Why don't you just delete the necro class from the game ? Instead of using counters for hexes people will complain and cry that hexes need a nerf because they refuse to change their builds for pvp.

I can't believe I'm going over this again, but here it goes:
People do adapt their builds to the metagame. If you don't you can't possibly play PvP at a high level. You NEED an RC in this metagame, because everyone has a cripslash warrior and a burning arrow ranger. If you don't have an RC, you're screwed. The RC's direct healing power lacks though, so your other monk needs to make up for that. That's why you see LoD monks.
Non-elite hex removal lacks. You can take elite hex removal, but that's humility bait.
If you have a burning arrow ranger (who has savage/distract), and you somehow manage to keep him clean from reckless haste, spirit of failure, price of failure, blurred vision, and they somehow don't have Aegis, you can interrupt a lot of the hexes, and they're relatively easy then. They'd have to be pretty stupid to allow you to keep your BA clean. Your ranger is going to be the number one focus of their shutdown.
Hexes are overpowered because they can completely shut down your offense with four skills from two. (reckless/price/spirit on a ranger, faintheartedness on warriors, there you go), while still maintaining the room for a standard offense. (Cripslash, Melandru, BA, midline pressure from Reapers, Migraine).
But most importantly, until you've actually played PvP at a decent level, you shout just shut up about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WildmouseX

if soul reaping was so superior, then why were monk primaries in more demand then necro monks?

Because PvE-ers are too attracted by stereotypes, and just weren't smart enough to see N/Mo's were superior. If you had been to HA during the jaggedway phase, you'd see N/Rt + N/Mo was the most popular backline.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hole Sale Traps

I still want the old Per nerf Soul reaping to come back with the needed changes and not the timed energy gain. All in all They Screwed Over SR once again Period

I completely don't agree with that and I don't have any idea who you are, but because you said period at the end of your unsupported statement I will just assume it's correct. Thanks for providing me this undoubtly correct insight.

Sniper22 · Jun 18, 2007, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Actually, people prefer monk primaries because they are better at healing. Divine Favor helps them get the job done without the need to spam too many spells. Necro primary monks suck unless you do some stupid jagged bones build because if your group can't get a kill, the necro won't get any soul reaping, and then the necro can't heal anybody...

glountz · Jun 18, 2007, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper22

Actually, people prefer monk primaries because they are better at healing. Divine Favor helps them get the job done without the need to spam too many spells. Necro primary monks suck unless you do some stupid jagged bones build because if your group can't get a kill, the necro won't get any soul reaping, and then the necro can't heal anybody...

You obviously didn't try a full necro group with 2 MM and a BiPer in PVE with 2 Necro monks spamming heal party, heal other and extinguish, or elites like shield of regeneration.
If you had done that, you would have seen that SR was completely overpowered.
Now, it was PVE and PVE is far from being about "balance". The SR nerf for PvP was more about controlled ways to trigger SR - spirits and minions. Stop minions and Spirits from triggering SR, whether it's yours or not, would still have been the best solution IMHO.

agrios · Jun 18, 2007, 06:07 PM // 18:07

My 2 cents:

Make SR triggers with every KO, exclude spirits and minions from triggering it and cap it by SR Level/4 enery gained per frag. You still get a constant stream of energy coming but at a slower rate so you can't spam skills.

Sins can get +4 energy per critical hit, and crits occurs more often than deaths, and still no one thinks critical strikes is abusive. See my point? A Necro could go very well with +4 energy gained per death and still would make some sense in maxing SR. Another option should go SR level/3 energy gained. If needed be, cap the SR Range to earshot/radar.

IMHO this would satisfy both PvE and PvP.

aubee · Jun 18, 2007, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by WildmouseX

if they were implimenting a "1 energy for every 2 points in soul reaping" there wouldn't be an argument here, because we would have a steady, relighible source of energy return - instead they impliment timers, that can be triggered in patterns where not only do you not get a huge chunk of energy, you don't get any at all....

paragons would be screaming up a storm too if they were allowed 1 energy for each rank, but only got it once every 5 seconds, or even 3 times in 15 seconds - because the energy management that they depend on would be as sparactic as ours currently is, and as it will still be after the new change. -- there you go developers - you want to see how you broke the necro, give the paragon 1 energy for each rank, but only 3 times in 15 seconds and see how well that class plays after.

QFT.

This is the crux of the whole matter for me. I don't care that ANet has nerfed SR. I don't care if they nerf it even more. But the way they have nerfed it is completely retarded, imo. There are at least 3 better, more straightforward ways to have nerfed it than with some silly timer limit.

That being said, I have had no problems playing any of my necro builds in PVE since the nerf. Nor have I noticed Olias or MoW having any problems either, so it really doesn't matter much to me.

Sniper22 · Jun 18, 2007, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

You obviously didn't try a full necro group with 2 MM and a BiPer in PVE with 2 Necro monks spamming heal party, heal other and extinguish, or elites like shield of regeneration.
If you had done that, you would have seen that SR was completely overpowered.
Now, it was PVE and PVE is far from being about "balance". The SR nerf for PvP was more about controlled ways to trigger SR - spirits and minions. Stop minions and Spirits from triggering SR, whether it's yours or not, would still have been the best solution IMHO.

If there is a bip in the party, then there is no point for soul reaping on the N/Mo's cause their energy will already be full, just like it would be on any other profession. Also don't see the point of 2 minion masters in pve lol... not that many corpses

Also, instead of just nerfing a primary attribute, why can't anet just add skills to shut it down. Like a mesmer skill that disables the passive effect of a primary attribute on any profession for 10 secs or so. That will take down the N/Mos easily.